Heh, I can buy two or three HD7950's in CrossFireX, outperform the Titan, and still have change left over.
If he wants to go AMD the best choice would be the MSI R7950 Twin Frozr III. It will overclock past R7970 speeds and a lot of them have R7970 PCB's as well. The 3gb of VRAM is nice as well. The Sapphire Vapor X versions are pretty good as well. Taking into account price/performance the R7950 is a very good choice.
The Titan is a decent choice if you don't have much space and want the 6gb of VRAM (which is really unnecessary unless you want to go high resolution multi monitor) but I think at the price it's at, there's better options on the market.
TES Skyrim 0.155
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Re: TES Skyrim 0.155
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Re: TES Skyrim 0.155
Haha, I knew you'd follow up on an ATi discussion :p Gotta defend your keep right? I absolutely agree with UW. The price / performance is right for ATi. Thats why I was soo upset when they didn't have a crazy flagship single card solution that would compete against the Titan. I might of chose ATi then based on price alone. In the end I really wanted that 6gb of ram though and the option to add multiple cards down the road. I wanted a 690 back in the day but 2gb of ram is soo 2008. I was actually running out of video memory with my old 580gtx 3gb cards. I tried a 680gtx 4gb and was still running out of video memory. Alas, I bit the bullet and got the Titan. Best and Worst $1000 I've ever spent. Worst because I felt SUPER guilty buying it, and best because it absolutely destroys downsampling!Unreal Warfare wrote:Heh, I can buy two or three HD7950's in CrossFireX, outperform the Titan, and still have change left over.
If he wants to go AMD the best choice would be the MSI R7950 Twin Frozr III. It will overclock past R7970 speeds and a lot of them have R7970 PCB's as well. The 3gb of VRAM is nice as well. The Sapphire Vapor X versions are pretty good as well. Taking into account price/performance the R7950 is a very good choice.
The Titan is a decent choice if you don't have much space and want the 6gb of VRAM (which is really unnecessary unless you want to go high resolution multi monitor) but I think at the price it's at, there's better options on the market.
Oh and I used to use ATi. Loved them for years... It wasn't until 3D vision came out that I got hooked on Nvidia. Funny thing is I sold my 3D Vision long ago. Now I don't know why I haven't gone back to ATi. I guess its just comfort at this point. i'm used to Nvidia and how they run things, driver releases, configurations etc...
BTW UW, your blog is top notch! I need to spruce mine up a bit.
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Re: TES Skyrim 0.155
Not really about defending anything. I'm only loyal to my wallet. AMD or Nvidia won't pay my bills, or save my house from burning down.far327 wrote:Haha, I knew you'd follow up on an ATi discussion :p Gotta defend your keep right?
I simply speak from user experience, having owned a R7950 and knowing what they can do. I can run my ENB profile, with max settings (bar AA and AF which is handled by ENB), and 2k textures and not have any performance issues. Considering the amount of mods I run the R7950 deserves my recommendation. I'm pretty confident with more moderation in what I'm running I could downsample as well and still have good performance.
Sure you could argue that you don't need as much moderation with a Titan but it's a lot of money for one videogame.
It's also worth noting I run the same CPU as Wolfstryder as well (I also own a HD6870) and I think the Titan would be seriously bottlenecked by the AMD 965 BE if I'm quite honest. You really need a decent Intel CPU with that Titan to get the most out of the system. He should also get that AMD CPU up to 4ghz.
Thanks. Glad you're enjoying it.BTW UW, your blog is top notch! I need to spruce mine up a bit.
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Re: TES Skyrim 0.155
Wolfstryder
First of all, your cpu is bad for what you wish to have, all amd have specific bottleneck (all amd run the same max fps). If you want really big performance improvement in Skyrim (also gtasa, gta4, upcoming gta5), get Intel 4 core model with overclocking feature (core i5 2500k, 3750k), i tested myself these:
For 1 and 2 i have damned 37-38 fps very frequently, because it's value taken from cpu-motherboard combination when gpu waiting locked resourses (happen in skyrim for some character bodyparts or clothing, for particles, something else).
For 3 and 4 that limit is 56 fps and it's easily scale up with overclocking.
Test 4 is much faster than test 2 when you look to horizon with many visible objects, by geometry synthetic gtx 660 is 4 times faster with intel cpu, but same as 9600 gt on amd cpu (it simply limited by cpu).
So, change motherboard and cpu first, try with your current videocard, may be it's still ok for you.
Now second part, ATI vs NVidia. I don't have experience in Crossfire or SLI, but i remember that Crossfire users bothered me at least 10 times more than with SLI. Mod works slower than with single card and they trying to do something (change game profiles i guess), famous games of the past without any mods rans slower (if i remember, gta4 as example), ati released patches for such games after several days or weeks. Now they do not update their drivers frequently, abandoned support of old videocards (which can't be called an old), they disabling hardware features of old videocards via drivers or simply not implement them (that's why skyrim have spell and fire issues for some videocards). It's the matter of trust, personaly i don't like to upgrade hardware frequently, but such "solution" may be required for the future with ati.
Performance of radeon 7950 is strange comparable to geforce gtx 660 ti. 384 vs 192 bit memory and near same performance (greater or lower, depending from games)? It's architechture problems of radeons!!! I advise to ask users to test mine ssao performance on similar ati and nvidia cards with same quality setting, resolution and when camera is looking at the ground in tfc mode somewhere far away (better skyrimprefs.ini same). I'm afraid that benefit of 384 bit memory is not utilized on ati, but who knows, may be public performance tests in games have such results because these games don't have complex effects like ssao (user's made dof also slow, detailed shadows, etc). Btw, some models gtx 660 and 660 ti have more than 2 gb vram.
First of all, your cpu is bad for what you wish to have, all amd have specific bottleneck (all amd run the same max fps). If you want really big performance improvement in Skyrim (also gtasa, gta4, upcoming gta5), get Intel 4 core model with overclocking feature (core i5 2500k, 3750k), i tested myself these:
Code: Select all
1 athlon x3 2.9 ghz (overclocking to 3.7 do nothing) + geforce 9600 gt
2 athlon x3 2.9 ghz (overclocking to 3.7 do nothing) + geforce 660 gtx
3 intel core i7 3.4 ghz + geforce 9600 gt
4 intel core i7 3.4 ghz + geforce 660 gtx
For 3 and 4 that limit is 56 fps and it's easily scale up with overclocking.
Test 4 is much faster than test 2 when you look to horizon with many visible objects, by geometry synthetic gtx 660 is 4 times faster with intel cpu, but same as 9600 gt on amd cpu (it simply limited by cpu).
So, change motherboard and cpu first, try with your current videocard, may be it's still ok for you.
Now second part, ATI vs NVidia. I don't have experience in Crossfire or SLI, but i remember that Crossfire users bothered me at least 10 times more than with SLI. Mod works slower than with single card and they trying to do something (change game profiles i guess), famous games of the past without any mods rans slower (if i remember, gta4 as example), ati released patches for such games after several days or weeks. Now they do not update their drivers frequently, abandoned support of old videocards (which can't be called an old), they disabling hardware features of old videocards via drivers or simply not implement them (that's why skyrim have spell and fire issues for some videocards). It's the matter of trust, personaly i don't like to upgrade hardware frequently, but such "solution" may be required for the future with ati.
Performance of radeon 7950 is strange comparable to geforce gtx 660 ti. 384 vs 192 bit memory and near same performance (greater or lower, depending from games)? It's architechture problems of radeons!!! I advise to ask users to test mine ssao performance on similar ati and nvidia cards with same quality setting, resolution and when camera is looking at the ground in tfc mode somewhere far away (better skyrimprefs.ini same). I'm afraid that benefit of 384 bit memory is not utilized on ati, but who knows, may be public performance tests in games have such results because these games don't have complex effects like ssao (user's made dof also slow, detailed shadows, etc). Btw, some models gtx 660 and 660 ti have more than 2 gb vram.
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Re: TES Skyrim 0.155
So far the news and rumors i read, nvidia quitting their stake on the next gen consoles and ATI taking over. PS4 is already announced 100% AMD hardware. xbox and wii u are expected to follow same way. So all future game is most likely to be developed with ATI hardware. So that ends up PC ATI users having better optimized game in future (maybe)
I dont care which card sucks but we all know gaming industry is defined by consoles. Me personally not switching to nvidia until i see for myself what happens throughout 2014.
I dont care which card sucks but we all know gaming industry is defined by consoles. Me personally not switching to nvidia until i see for myself what happens throughout 2014.
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Re: TES Skyrim 0.155
At stock I would agree with you. Overclock the Phenom II though (you want 4ghz minimum out of it ideally with a nice FSB overclock too) and you'll see a decent increase in performance as long as you keep the chip cool enough. Phenom II's love to be cold. I won't argue it's a better CPU than an i5 2500k (or other higher end Intel chips), because it's not, but he really doesn't need to upgrade the CPU that badly if he's up for overclocking it. Having recently upgraded from a HD6870 to a R7950, and also running an AMD 965BE @ 4ghz, I think overall he's more likely to benefit from a GPU upgrade, along with the extra VRAM for textures, unless he's not willing to overclock (which you should be doing with a Black Edition, and is easy on a AMD 96BE, just bump up the multiplier and make sure it's adequately cool). If performance is really that hard on his Phenom II at stock levels he can just bump shadow settings down to High, with the ENB shadows running he really wouldn't notice a massive difference in quality.ENBSeries wrote:First of all, your cpu is bad for what you wish to have..
Not going to get into CrossFireX, because I do not use it anymore, though I intend to CrossFireX the R7950 in the near future (personally I plan to go for three). When I did it ran ok for me with HD5770's though when I used ENB back then it was in it's early days for Skyrim and performance was murdered for AMD cards regardless.
Currently, with a large amount of mods (which includes the latest Skyrim Flora Overhaul, and increased tree and grass meshes which really murder performance) and at mostly 2k optimized textures, settings on Ultra (minus AA and AF as they're run by ENB), grass bumped up to extended distance via the ini, and running Unreal Cinema Directors Cut, I average around 45-50 FPS running around outside Whiterun with my setup. Running K-ENB you could probably drop another 5-10 FPS off of that. Initially I was at around 17-21 FPS outside Whiterun with Unreal Cinema and K-ENB wasn't even worth running (again, knock of another 5-10 FPS). That is with both at their quality settings and with the exact same mods.
Specs for clarification:
AMD 965 BE @ 4ghz
8gb Corsair Vengeance
M4A79XTD EVO Motherboard
MSI Twin Frozr III R7950 3gb GPU @ 880mhz (factory overclock)
In general that's my experience of running ENB on a modded Skyrim with an AMD setup.
If you can go into more detail what test you want done exactly, and under what circumstances I can do this with my setup. Stock or overclocked Whatever helps understand the nature of how ENB's affecting various AMD setups will surely benefit AMD users in the future..I advise to ask users to test mine ssao performance on similar ati and nvidia cards with same quality setting, resolution and when camera is looking at the ground in tfc mode somewhere far away (better skyrimprefs.ini same).
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Re: TES Skyrim 0.155
You really think getting a 7970 over a 7950 would be a waste if I kept my Phenon II 965 BE? If I wanted to upgrade I'd have to get a new MOBO.
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Re: TES Skyrim 0.155
Unreal Warfare
Even overclocked amd cpu will not get performance similar to Intel platform non overclocked in case of ultra quality in genera and increased draw distance, where bottleneck occur. Do you remember test of rocks flying in space on this forum, where amd cpu and motherboards all have 6-8 fps, but intel 18-23? That's what i'm talking about. Faster videocard give better performance, but his current is fast enough and for increased details fps will be limited.
Regarding tests, i'll start developing now separate ssao performance benchmark application, so users could use it when choose videocards.
Wolfstryder
Performance tests (flash plugin must be installed in browser)
http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-video/0 ... -pcie.html
http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-video/0 ... -pcie.html
http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-video/0 ... -pcie.html
http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-video/0 ... -pcie.html
imho price difference is too high
Even overclocked amd cpu will not get performance similar to Intel platform non overclocked in case of ultra quality in genera and increased draw distance, where bottleneck occur. Do you remember test of rocks flying in space on this forum, where amd cpu and motherboards all have 6-8 fps, but intel 18-23? That's what i'm talking about. Faster videocard give better performance, but his current is fast enough and for increased details fps will be limited.
Regarding tests, i'll start developing now separate ssao performance benchmark application, so users could use it when choose videocards.
Wolfstryder
Performance tests (flash plugin must be installed in browser)
http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-video/0 ... -pcie.html
http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-video/0 ... -pcie.html
http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-video/0 ... -pcie.html
http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-video/0 ... -pcie.html
imho price difference is too high
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Re: TES Skyrim 0.155
To be honest I'm not aware of any such tests. I'd be happy to take a look at them though if they're still on the forum.ENBSeries wrote:Unreal Warfare
Even overclocked amd cpu will not get performance similar to Intel platform non overclocked in case of ultra quality in genera and increased draw distance, where bottleneck occur. Do you remember test of rocks flying in space on this forum, where amd cpu and motherboards all have 6-8 fps, but intel 18-23? That's what i'm talking about. Faster videocard give better performance, but his current is fast enough and for increased details fps will be limited.
I know that AMD Phenom II's overclocked can achieve similar performance to stock Intel i5 2500k's in general gaming. As an example an AMD 975 @ 3.7ghz will hit just 5 fps less than an i5 2500k in StarCraft 2, while just beating the i5 2500k in Far Cry 2, so I'm curious about the test and circumstances of the test with the Intel and AMD CPU comparison because in a lot of benchmarks the difference, while there is one, is not really that high with the particular chip in question. Of course when you start overclocking the i5 2500k it is the more obvious choice, but is it really necessary when you can overclock the AMD 965BE (which overclock like beasts, with the right air cooling you can get them up to 4.5ghz, and when overclocked can negate bottleneck)? Which is the real question. When the AMD 965 BE is overclocked I don't think the i5 2500k is really a necessary upgrade compared to the R7950 and paired with it, not when you take into account the cost of the i5 2500k and Motherboard together against the price of the R7950.
In regards to the HD5870 vs R7950, please consider this... The HD6870 is a little under the HD5870 in terms of performance (in general it sits between the 5850 and the 5870). Clock for clock they're both fairly even with the HD6870 giving way by a few FPS in some benchmarks and others by 10-15 FPS give or take. Now, taking into account I upgraded from a HD6870 to a R7950 and saw an average 30 FPS increase personally I think you're looking at a decent 20 FPS increase, and that the money is better spent here, especially so with the R7950's overclocking ability on a R7970 PCB. You can get these beasts over 1ghz easily on air with the right brand.
Now of course I am going purely by user experience, but I think that user experience from actually having used the same hardware questioned, with a heavily modified Skyrim and high quality ENB settings, is most definitely something important to also consider. Unfortunately I do not have an Intel CPU or Nvidia GPU to do any form of comparison test (I would happily do so if I did, this sort of stuff interests me a lot), what I can say, with complete honesty, is that with the AMD 965BE @ 4ghz, 8gb of RAM, and a R7950, I have absolutely no issue running a modified Skyrim with ENB whatsoever.
I think the R7950 is more than enough, taking into account it's overclocking ability and getting a R7970 PCB (8pin+6pin), if you compare the two. You would really want to look at overclocking the AMD 965 BE to a minimum of stable 4ghz though. If you have no interest in overclocking and just want to run stock clocks I would recommend getting a better CPU. AMD 965BE's were made for overclocking and it's only when they're dramatically overclocked that they tend to reach their full potential.Wolfstryder wrote:You really think getting a 7970 over a 7950 would be a waste if I kept my Phenon II 965 BE? If I wanted to upgrade I'd have to get a new MOBO.
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Re: TES Skyrim 0.155
No, but it wouldn't be much trouble to get one.ENBSeries wrote:Do you have an icq?
In .nif format, yes.Do you know how to import new geometry, setup material properties of it (invisible dummy)?
This is the one that would require some thought. There's an idiosyncrasy with the engine where, in third person, getting the player's rotational positions gives the angles for the character model rather than those for the camera. This doesn't happen in first person since the camera IS the character for all intents and purposes.Do you know solution to that old question how to draw huge object always in center of the world or place it to camera (not player)?
i.e. rotating the camera in third person does not affect the value returned by player.getAngleX/Y/Z()
It may be possible to use a shader particle geometry (rain, snow, other precipitation effects) since those are placed right in front of the camera, but it might not be possible if a given weather already has one specified? I'd have to investigate whether I can apply a shader particle geometry outside the weather system.